14th December - More on the Twelve Tribes

Yeah I'm really sorry - you'll know I'm pants at keeping things up-to-date by now!

So. Sunday.

We started off looking at the answers to some of the questions Jamie asked in his last post:

The first one was about when the Assyrians came down and took the Northern kingdom into exile, and what about the other tribes?

Well, looking at 2 Chron 11:16, "And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers." , we find that the the tribes who were faithful to the real God, the LORD God of Israel, came down into Judah to worship at the proper place - Jerusalem, capital of Judah. We find out who those tribes were in 2 Chron 30, when Hezekiah (a good king) is calling for all the faithful tribes to come down and serve at the temple for the Passover. (v8,9 - "Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you. For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.") We see then that it really is a plea for the faithful to not just come down for the Passover, but to come down for good. In v11 we find out who responded to this call - "11 Nevertheless some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem" along with the tribes already in Judah.

Hope that helped!

Next question Jamie'd asked was whether there were 14 tribes - different lists missed out and included different tribes...! So we looked up all the lists of the tribes we could find, and put all alongside each other in a spreadsheet. I've copied it so you can see our big list. Hm ok I haven't - copying it didnt work. I have no idea how to attach it... aha hold on: I THINK it's worked... (thanks to Kirsty for filling it all in by the way!). Yeah I'm pretty sure there aren't 14 tribes, but guys I really need your help figuring out what we're supposed to get from this! Sorry Uncle Norman, I'm um floundering here..! My excuse? I was kind of coming down with the whole bug thing that morning... and was kind of sleepy, and hadn't been there last lesson. So come one guys, help!

Ok mum's helping me =P.

Right, so Kirsty - about the nine and half tribes when it lists 12, that was because 2 and half tribes (Reuben, Gad and half of Manasseh) decided not to live actually in the Promised Land - they stayed on the east side of the Jordan.

Yeah I'm sorry but I'm not sure what I'm meant to be doing - I hand over to you guys - please please help!

The Twelve Tribes of Isreal - Genesis 49

So this week we looked at the twelve tribes of Israel.

These were: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Zebulan, Isaachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Benjamin, Ephraim and Manasseh.

Firstly we talked about Ephraim and Manasseh, and how Ephraim was given the firstborn even though he was the second son(Gen 48 v 8 - 20) The tribe of Ephraim became the largest of all the tribes.

It's interesting that there's slight differences in some places, concerning the tribes. The 12 sons of Israel were the original 12 tribes. Reuben lost his rights as firstborn by defiling Jacob's bed(Gen 49 v 3-4) In Reuben and Joseph's place, Joseph’s two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, became tribes of Israel(Gen 48 v 5-6) In some other lists of the twelve tribes of Israel, Levi is not mentioned, presumably because the Levites were told to serve at the temple and therefore were not given any land of their own in Israel.
At this point we looked at Exodus 32, where we see the Levites loyalty towards God, in which they were rewarded with the spiritual service lost at that time by the firstborn of the other tribes.

We also briefly looked at the lost tribes of Israel. After Solomon's death, the Hebrew nation split into two kingdoms. The tribe of Judah, Simeon, Levi and Benjamin formed the Southern Kingdom, and the other tribes made up the Northern Kingdom of Israel. The Assyrians conquered the Northern Kingdom and sent the tribes into Exile, so what happened to these tribes? Anyone know?

At the end of class we looked at another list of the twelve tribes, in which Joseph is listed as a tribe, along with his son Manasseh. Ephraim and Dan are both missing from the list.
Every list in the Bible contains Simeon, Judah, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin. To add to those nine tribes, there were Ephraim, Reuben, Joseph, Dan, and Levi. So were there 14 tribes then?

It's an interesting topic, i would be interested to see what other people's opinions are on this.

Continue of Nehemiah and other discussion

well this week i found out i was doing the blog at the end of study group so i only got a few notes, but i rememebered most of it i think.





We started by taking a little about Nehemiah from last week, and how Nehemiah was so upset because Jerusalem' s wall was broken. Nehemiah 1 v 1-3 '1.The words of Nehemiah the son of Hacaliah. Now it happened in the month of Chislev in the twentieth year as i was in Susa the capital, 2. that Hanani one of my brother, came with certain men from Judah. And i asked them concerning the Jews who escaped, who had survived the exile, and concerning Jerusalem 3. And they said to me, "the remnant there in the provence who had survived the exile is in great trouble and shame. the wall of Jeruaslem is broken down, and its gates are destroyed by fire." ' Nehemiah had the opportunity to go back to Babylon, he had a great life there, yet he stayed in Jerusalem. He was motivated to pull everything back together.

We were talking about the water cycle and how the seas were the nations, the sun was the knowledge of God which was the son Jesus. The clouds (top left) were the clouds of witnesses, which were all the people from Hebrews 11 which is about faith, those people will be in the Kingdom. Hebrews 12 v 1 'Therefore since we are surounded by so great cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.'

Then we went on to talk about Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel because it linked with the water cycle as we looked at the different nations and the timeline. We find out what Nebuchadnezzar is like as a person, in other books he is just known as King. In Daniel we get to see the personal side of him. Daniel chapter 4 was written by Nebuchadnezzar and we compared this to modern times, and it would just be like Saddam Hussein writing a book of the Bible (if he wasn't dead)

i couldn't really remember the rest of what we talked about, sorry.

Nehemiah

I didn't offer to do the blog but I took a few notes so I might as well!

Today we looked at Nehemiah. We didn't have time to look at the whole book, we just really looked at the first couple of chapters. To start with we came up with what we already knew about Nehemiah:

• He had a vineyard ( I have yet to check this... but perhaps this is getting mixed up with Naboth??)
  
• His name means 'Comfort of Yahweh'
  
• He was a servant to the King - cupbearer


• Rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem

We have to look out for Nehemiah praying - you see different forms of prayer within the look.
2:1-5 The king was asking Nehemiah "what are you requesting?" and Nehemiah prayed before answering - we discussed how this might've been an extremely short one such as "Lord give me strength" without needing to close his eyes either.

His prayer in chapter 1 starts off by recognising God for who he is. He prays for the people as PART of the people - not in between the people and God. v6 "...which we have sinned against you..." He's the same level of behaviour and responsibility as everyone else.
See Isaiah 55:8 'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'
Everything might look good from the outside but when you look closer theres all these glitches.. take the Earth, for example. It looks perfectly round and flat from really far away but when you look really close you see quite a different picture. No-one standing in the Himilayas is going to say the earth is flat! That was difficult to explain... (anyone care to help me?)

We then looked briefly at the rebuilding of the walls around Jerusalem . It wasn't for a while after the temple got rebuilt that the walls around Jerusalem got repaired (see that diagram I drew, the gap between the 80years rebuilding the temple and when Nehemiah comes into the picture). Nehemiah 2:17 says
"17Then I said to them, "You see the trouble we are in, how Jerusalem lies in ruins with its gates burned. Come, let us build the wall of Jerusalem, that we may no longer suffer derision."
Need to build up the walls to distract us from things of the outside world. Rebuilt - stop people breaking through. Try to do it induvidually - cannot do it. Work together, help each other, encourage each other.

chapter 5:19 reads "Remember for my good, O my God, all that I have done for this people." This sounds pretty boastful but it's Nehemiah needing God's salvation. He's been trying hard but needs God's salvation. It seems boastful but that is probably just the language used.

Our task: Look through Nehemiah and find bits where we think he is praying (If i remember correctly).

November 2nd - Gideon

This week we looked at Gideon and to start off, we looked at how he was also called Jerubbaal (Judges 7:1), which means ‘’Let Baal Plead’’. We then had a whip-round of what we could remember about Gideon and some of the things we could remember were:

He destroyed the alter of Baal
He fought the Midianites
He defeated Zeba and Zalmunna
The fleece and dew signs
He was sent to save Israel
He built an alter called Jehovah-Shalom (“The LORD is Peace”)

We also had a think back to when we discussed the cycle in Judges and how it goes:
Faithful => Wandering => Oppressed => Appealing to God => A judge is sent => God delivers
And with Gideon, we can see we are at the ‘’Judge Is Sent’’ stage as God sends Gideon to battle and this battle is successful and Israel are saved. This cycle could also be applicable to each of our lives – we are all faithful but we are also appealing to God to send Jesus back to the earth so that we may be saved and granted access to the Kingdom of God.
So after the quick recap of Gideon, we read through Judges 6 to refresh our minds of part of the story of Gideon. We were then able to see some points that we’d missed out – the trumpets in v34, ‘But the Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, and Abi-ezer was gathered after him.’, and that Gideon was from the tribe of Manasseh.
From reading this chapter, we were able to look at some learning points for us as individuals and a key point that we came across was that in Judges 6:6-8 we read, ‘And Israel was greatly impoverished because of the Midianites; and the children of Israel cried unto the LORD. And it came to pass, when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD…the LORD sent a prophet unto the children of Israel.’ Here, we see that God was ready to answer the children of Israel’s cries and from this we are able to take comfort in knowing that when we are in trouble, when we pray to God, He will answer us, and even if God doesn’t answer us straight away, we always have the Word of God to give us an answer. Another lesson that we were able to make was by linking Judges 6:8-9 to Jeremiah 16:14-15 where it says, ‘Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it will no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them…’. From this, we were able to see that God will send the Prophet back to save us, the children of Israel, from all the lands that He has driven us and with our faith, we can keep this hope alive by reading the Bible and reading of His promises to us.
Another point that we were able to make from chapter 6 of Judges was about the cakes in v19. We looked back to Cain and Abel’s sacrifices and how God torched the one that He found acceptable and with Gideon, we see that God makes Gideon’s sacrifice acceptable as it gets torched, ‘…and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes.’.
We also looked at the humility of Gideon in v15; ‘My family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house.’ Gideon’s family had an altar dedicated to them which showed they were highly respected. They also had 2 bullocks and these animals were special in those times as they were able to breed to provide food. Gideon himself had 10 servants upon which he could call. The humility that Gideon shows is a big example to us to help us remember that we are a lot lower than God and that we need to humble ourselves before God when we pray to Him.
So in summary, this week we were able to look at the faithfulness of Gideon and we were able to take away benefits from God’s Word in that He is always there for us when we call on Him.

Your job – look through chapters 7,8 and 9 and come up with any point that you want to make about Gideon and say how you feel that there is a lesson for us in it.
My comment:
Chapter 7:3-8. Here it talks about how Gideon’s army was reduced in number from 22,000 to 300. I think the process of elimination could compare to our lives and that it’s a bit like God saying that those who are afraid are those who don’t listen to the Word of God and they return to the world but those who lapped the water are those who lap up the water are those who lap up the water are those who lap up the Word of God as He saves those people from the Midianites and helps them to defeat the Midianites. Melanie x

The Golden Calf Exodus 32

So the Golden Calf... this is when Moses has been up the mountain and the people make a calf-idol of gold, which is obviously not a good thing to be doing..

We had a peek at the context of this incident, as it always helps to know what's been going on before the incident. We went back to Ex 19 and 20, where we find Israel at Mt Sinai. God is talking to his people, showing that He is prepared to communicate with them, so long as they approach Him in the right way:

19v10,11 - Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes.

And let them be ready for the third day. For on the third day the LORD will come down upon Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people."

He promises the people that He'll make them a 'special treasure above all nations' IF they're good. (19v4-6)

However, the people don't want things this way. They cannot see the goodness of the promise, or that God brought them there to learn, they only see fear. In 20v18,19, they are so scared that they plead with Moses that God speaks to them no more and that Moses speaks to Him for them. It's interesting that the last commandment that God gives to them (through Moses now) before Moses speaks privately to God,is this:

20v23 You shall not make anything to be with Me - gods of silver or gods of gold you shall not make for yourselves.

Fitting, eh?!

In ch 24, the people's plea is put into practice, and Moses repeats to them the words of the Law given to him in 23-24. In v9-11 Aaron goes part way up the mountain with Moses, other nobles and Josuhua, before Moses leaves them and later Joshua to go back again to God for forty days and nights. But the point is, it says Aaron 'saw God' - although God is angels here, its still a pretty amazingly mindblowing experience to go through!

And so we come past all the commandments God gives to Moses, to the people, less than five weeks after God thundered at Mount Sinai... The people are having a hard time remembering what God has done for them throughout their wilderness journey, so much that in v1 they say it was MOSES who was the 'man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt.' They had forgotten all about God, had limited their horizons to man, and so Moses had become their highest authority, in place of the LORD their God! Moses had been gone weeks, so the people lose faith in even him, and start asking for a replacement 'god.' We might say but HOW could a people who'd been through all they had FORGET about God?! But it was incredibly easy, simply because they'd STOPPED REMEMBERING! This is really quite important for us too - if we stop remembering what God has done and is doing for us, then it's too easy to forget Him.

Aaron, too, who'd seen 'God' was soon swayed and overcome by the people - this is also something we must be careful, and once again it is a matter of remembering God and His doings so that people in the world can't change our mind about His sheer righteousness and lovingkindness - God is the best thing we have but even so people will try to take us away from Him! So keep remembering Him, it's important.

Moses' actions in this chapter are quite an interesting type of Jesus. When he sees the scale of the people's sin (the 'unrestrained'/'nakedness'/'broken loose' in v25 seems to have connotations of sexual sinning too, not just idolatry) he throws the tablets down in disgust (God's commandments are broken). Then comes the 'who is on the LORD's side' call, and the Levites join Moses. (It seems as if the Levites had been resisiting this new move of the people all the way through, if you look at v25 it says the people were sinning 'to their shame among their enemies', which would suggest there is some adversity to the events of the 5 and 1/2 weeks, most likely the Levites, who were on 'the Lord's side'). Anyway, Moses later, having ordered 3000 to be killed for the sin, later goes to 'make atonement for your sin' with God. We are reminded of Jesus, especially when he asks God to either forgive the people, or put their sins on him and 'blot me out of Your book.' He is offering up his life to allow the people to be forgiven. It was a huge sacrifice to make (even though God's justice meant he didn't have to actually make it in the end), especially since the Book is probably the Book of Life - the people who will be in Kingdom... Moses was offering to be disallowed into the Kingdom of God!! That's some sacrifice, just like Jesus gave His whole life to our forgiveness - He had to spend every minute of every day not sinning FOR US! It's just amazing!

Moses also gave God the glory - he wanted the sin/wrath lifted because God's reputation would be at stake! It wasn't about him, it wasn't about the people, it was about God that Moses was worried. We can learn from him!

So. Why was it a CALF the people decided to make? Well it's all to do with Egypt, really. They had a lot of cow gods or similar. Especially Ptah, a creator god, who had a 'living image' (sort of manifestation on earth) in the Apis Bull. This was a bull that was chosen from the flocks of Egypt and basically treated like a god and royal. It had everything your average cow could ask for, plus more..! This Bull (there were also statue idols of it around Egypt, not just the living thing) had a disc between its horns, which represented the Sun God. There was Hathor, a cowheaded goddess of the desert, too - so you can see that calves would be quite special in Egypt- revered really. Perhaps an Israelite had brought along a wee Apis Bull idol and they made a mold (mould?) from that? Whatever it was, they were certainly looking back to Egypt. But 'remember Lot's wife'!

Dont stop remembering, because then you'll forget!

The Seven Days of Creation in Psalm 104

Hello there! I suddenly realised it's Sunday tomorrow, so I'd better get on with this blog! :P

Last week we had a look at the appearance of the seven days of creation in Psalm 104...

Day 1 - The creation of Light and the division of light from darkness

This appears at the start of the Psalm, in verse 2:
"Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment"
This is fairly straightforward and we have a wonderful image of God manipulating light at his will and covering himself with it like putting on a coat!

Day 2 - The creation of a firmament to divide the waters of the sky from the waters of the deep

In verse 6, "Thou coverdst it (the earth) with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains"
We can see here that there is water covering the earth and water above the mountains - indicating a division between the two, which is where the firmament comes in.

Day 3 - The creation of dry land from the waters and the creation of plants

In verse 7:
"At thy rebuke they (the waters) fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away."
This gives us a poetic glimpse of how the land may have been created - the waters simply fell away at God's command to make way for the land! Some interesting parallels with the Red Sea here...
Verse 8 seems to be a description of the water cycle - thousands of years ahead of its time!
Verse 9 refers to God's promise to Noah after the flood.
Verse 14-16 refer to the creation of the plants and indicate their purpose towards the sustaining of man and the animals.

Day 4 - The creation of the sun and the moon

Verse 19: "He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down."
Verse 22: The sun ariseth, they (the young lions) gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens."
This is an indication of the purpose of the sun and the moon - to let us know when to sleep and when to wake up!

Day 5 - The creation of the birds and the fishes

Verse 17:
(the trees are) "Where the birds make their nests: as for the the stork, the fir trees are their house."
We can see from this verse how the creation all fits together very nicely - where would birds live without trees to make their nests away from predators?
Similarly with the fish and 'creeping things' in verses 25-26:
"So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.
There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein."
Again we can see that the sea created earlier was a perfect habitat for these creatures, and that God would have known this from the start.

Day 6 - The creation of mammals and man

Verse 11: "They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst."
More evidence of God's creation all linking together - the water cycle is also vital for animals to get a drink of fresh water!
Verse 14 is the same in that the plants provide nuorishment for the animals.

Man also has his part to play in verse 23: "Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening."
We can also see that God would have had Jesus in mind right from the start: In Genesis 3:15, God refers the woman's seed (singular) and "his heel" - this verse is in fact referring to Jesus triumphing over sin! God could see the whole timeline right from the beginning - everything that has and will happen was known by God even before he created us!

Day 7 - The day of rest and meditation

This appears in verse 34 of Psalm 104 - "My meditation of him shall be sweet: I will be glad in the Lord."

Thanks for reading folks - as usual anything I have omitted or forgotten or misunderstood, please feel free to post a reply!

Another Look at Creation

Argh, first day back. We spent most of this morning going over what we did last session, what we plan to do this session, and air.

The main thing we looked at from last year were some of the parallels between Creation and other things described in the Bible. I can remember two seperate bits we looked at - if there were more, remember them yourself.

Firstly, the Sun. Jesus is often linked with the sun, and the links are obvious. There are several instances in the NT where He is described as the 'Light of the World' - you wouldn't think it could get much more straightforward than that, but it does.
Malachi 4:2 prophesies of a 'Sun of Righteousness' that will arise with healing in His wings. The sun brings light and provides the energy needed to sustain life on earth. There are probably more similarities in there we could look at, but we didn't.

We also considered clouds, and the water cycle as a whole. It's interesting that thousands of years before modern science, Job writes how God:

Draws up drops of water
Which distill as rain from the mist
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.

Again, there are parallels we can take from this - the influence of Jesus (the sun) causes certain droplets (believers) to separate from the sea (of nations) and rise up to condense in clouds (ecclesias?) which in turn rain down purified water (preaching?) onto the earth. It's interesting there to notice how when water is evaporated it leaves behind many of the impurities and extra bits it had, such as salt. I thought so, anyway.

Hebrews picks up on this as well, speaking of a 'great cloud of witnesses.' As clouds, it's the ecclesias' job to go forth and water all the earth.

No doubt there'll be more next week. Stay tuned, folks. And sorry for the gap between hearing and blogging.

The Symbolisation of Precipitation (Rain Explained)

It's finally here, OBSCENELY late (sorry folks, but better late than never I guess), it's the blog for Sunday 11th May! If you can cast your minds that far back (quite a feat, I know) we were looking at the Water Cycle and linking in the natural things with spiritual things...

We had a look at day 2 of creation...
Genisis 1:6,7

6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the water.
7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

From this we can see that there were two seperate areas of 'water' - the sea and the clouds. The sea is often used to represent the world or the surrounding nations - for example, when jesus walked on water, he was symbolically trampling on the surrounding nations, and when Peter tried to follow him, he was distracted by the waves - i.e., the world surrounding him.
From this, we get the idea that we are part of the world, and therefore part of the sea (which is not where we want to be!). The heirs to the promises (also handily dubbed 'the good guys') are part of the waters in the sky, however. In essence there is a 'firmament' or a division between the 'bad guys' (the world) and the 'good guys'. We are trying to get up into the waters of the heavens, or the clouds. What do you need to get water from the sea to the sky? Evaporation by the sun. We can see that the sun is represented spiritually by Christ. From this, we get that we, in the sea, need to be evaporated (become seperate from the world, i.e. bad guys) to become part of the clouds (hiers to the promises, i.e. good guys), and that the only way we can hope to achieve this is by the sun (Jesus Christ)!

Apologies for any inaccuracies and any bits I might have missed out (and also my sacriligeous overuse of the words 'from this' at the beginning of sentences) - if you have anything to add to this post, correct or generally shout at me about, feel free to do so on this very blog!

Creation week and the 7000 year plan

I have made the vital error of posting this a week late and not taking notes so this is going to be the shortest post ever.



This is the first week of the timeline we are doing round the meeting room wall. The bible uses the term "a day for a thousand years" in 2 peter 3 vs 8. So the picture on the left is the 7000 year plan.

9 march 2008 - Daniel chapter 12

The chapter is the last chapter in Daniel and it is about the time of the end. Daniel chapter 12 leads on to the book of revalation. Daniel is told to seal the book, to seal the word. where as in Revalation, John is told to send it to ecclesias and spread it around for all to hear.
We all had to make comments of what we thought and understood in the chapter. Verse 1 was a time of trouble before the end, the world was going to get worse, it was also about Michael - an archangel. Michael also appears in chapter 10 v13 + 21 where he helps Daniel. Michael is also in Jude verse 9 and revalation 12 v 7. In verse 2 of Daniel chapter 12, it is a picture, a picture of hope and judgement, and that continues on to verse 3. Verse 5 was about the river pointing forward to the river of life - revalation 22 v 1+2. In verse 12 it is a blessing for those who wait in faith until the end comes. Verse 13 is that there is a place in the kingdom allotted to Daniel it also links to Revalation 20 v 6 - you will be granted everlasting life when Christ returns.
We don't know the starting date for the world, so we have to be prepared for when the end does come. We always wait until the last minute to do something, don't do that for Christ, he could come at anytime.

Eilidh

Daniel Ch 11 in a bit more detail

Following on from last weeks (24/02) look at Chapter 11, today we delved a little deeper into some of the themes and tried to draw out some lessons. As the main focus last week was looking at the shorter term fulfilment (the Greek empire etc.), this week we probed the NT.

v27

Daniel 11v27:
"The two kings, with their hearts bent on evil, will sit at the same table and lie to each other, but to no avail, because an end will still come at the appointed time."

Compare this to Acts 17v29-31:
"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

Ah ha! We have a bit of a link here - the appointed time spoken about in Daniel seems to have a future fulfilment through Jesus when the world will be judged with justice.


v31+32

Daniel 11v31+32:
"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him."

The phrase 'abomination that causes desolation' cropped up a bit earlier in Daniel 9v27, and it also appears in the NT during the Olivet prophesy (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21).

Mark 13v14:
"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Jesus here obviously knows his OT (supreme emphasis on 'obviously'), and is quoting from Daniel to warn his disciples. The time spoken of here is AD70 when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans and the Jews were scattered. Those who knew their OT or listened to Jesus ('let the reader understand') were saved by fleeing to the mountains when this time of trouble came.

Does this also have a future prophesy?

As usual, time beat us to delve further, but we finished by remembering one of the key themes during our studies in Daniel:

God is in control

Daniel (not the Prophet)

24th Feb 08 - Daniel chapter 11

Daniel chapter 11 – Study Class, 24.02.2008

Quick summary of chapter 11: The King of the North and the King of the South did not like each other and fought over the whole land, but in the end they were all destroyed.
Very often prophecies have very several fulfilments, a short term fulfilment and a long term fulfilment.

The Babylonian Empire was the most powerful. It was situated in a central area around many other nations who looked up to it (even if they weren’t ruled by it) – Medes, Persians, Egyptians, Lyconians, just like in the vision of the tree where it was visible to all the earth.

The prophecy of Daniel is so accurate to what’s happened in history that critics say it must’ve been written after the events had taken place – but we know it wasn’t. When we get to Alexander the Great in history, we know that he was very powerful and conquered a huge area but when he died age 33 he had no children and so his kingdom was given to his four generals.
Compare this to Daniel 11:3,4 (NIV) “3Then a mighty king will appear, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases. 4After he has appeared, his empire will be broken up and parcelled out towards the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the power he exercised, because his empire will be uprooted and given to others.”

The four generals that got parts of the kingdom were: Ptolemy who got Egypt; Cassander who got Greece; Lysimachus who got Turkey; and Seleucus who got an incredibly large area – from Israel stretching out across towards India. They all battled with each other and eventually Seleucus got Greece and Turkey too, leaving just the southern area that belonged to Ptolemy – King of North and King of South.

Verse 6 – “After some years, they will become allies. The daughter of the king of the South will go to the king of the North to make an alliance, but she will not retain her power, and he and his power will not last. In those days she will be handed over, together will her royal escort and her father and the one who supported her.”
If you know history you will know this is what happened. (taken from our study book) Antiochus Theos, the third king of the dynasty of the north put away Laodice, his first wife, and married Berenice, daughter of Ptolemy Philadelphius, the second king. – This is what verse 6 is talking about!

Chapter 11 talks a lot about the ‘time of the end’. Shows it’s also a long term prophecy.
When Norman was younger, he heard a lot about Russia giving Egypt a lot of financial support (North and South). Now in the news (on Sunday 17th) Kosovo declared independence from Serbia, and Russia is totally against it. They are saying they will use military force – very similar to the prophecy. Verses 9&10 “9Then the king of the North will invade the realm of the king of the South but will retreat to his own country. 10His sons will prepare for war and assemble a great army, which will sweep on like an irresistible flood and carry the battle as far as his fortress.”

Hopefully next week we will be looking more into this chapter…

The Seventy Weeks Prophecy - Daniel Chapter 9

The seventy weeks prophecy appears in the angel Gabriel's reply to Daniel in the last seven verses of chapter 9. He tells Daniel that he is to give him insight and understanding and that he is greatly beloved.
The vision takes place soon after Darius began his rulership over Babylon. Before this Babylon had been ruled by Belshazzar, and before him Nebuchadnezzer who had beseiged Jerusalem when Daniel was young. Daniel says he had read the prophecy foretold by the prophet Jeremiah. Being aware of this writing and beleiving the fulfillment was near at hand, describes how he prayed for the Kingdom of Israel asking God to have mercy on his rebellious people.


The Seventy Weeks



Gabriel responding to his prayer, makes a proclomation regarding the timing of important events in the future of the people of Israel. He tells Daniel that the people will be given seventy weeks to get rid of their sins. The seventy weeks is actually seventy times seven which is four hundred-ninty years.



We drew out a timeline and looked at what happened in these seventy weeks.

1. In 7 weeks (49 years) there would be a decree to rebuild Jerusalem. 458 BC


2. In 62 weeks (434 years) Jerusalem and the Temple would be rebuilt. 409 BC


3. Messiah would then start his ministry. After the 62 weeks the anointed one (Messiah) would be cut off and have nothing.


4. The last week (7 years) is split into two. In the last week Christ would make a strong covenant with many and for half of the week he shall put an end to the sacrifice and offering. (25 AD)

Feb 3rd - Daniel Chapters 6 and 9 (Lion's Den)

Are Daniel chapters 6 and 9 intermingled?

Daniel ch6 is about Daniel in the lion's den, a 'story' we all know pretty well from Sunday School and the likes. It seems to be set in the first year of King Darius the Mede's reign - at the end of chapter 5 his reign just started and in 6:1 he is 'setting up' his princes - a task a king would normally carry out near the start of his reign. We agreed that it was very very likely it took place in the same year as Daniel's prayer in ch9 (9:1 says 'In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus') but that the study guide's suggestion that the two chapters took place on the same night was a little 'conceited' - the only suggestion of that was the things we just looked at...) We read a little conglomeration (big word!) of the two chapters, and it read quite nicely:



(Daniel 9:1-3) In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans; {which: or, in which he} In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

(Daniel 6:1-10) It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom; And over these three presidents; of whom Daniel was first: that the princes might give accounts unto them, and the king should have no damage. Then this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king thought to set him over the whole realm. Then the presidents and princes sought to find occasion against Daniel concerning the kingdom; but they could find none occasion nor fault; forasmuch as he was faithful, neither was there any error or fault found in him. Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God. Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever. {assembled...: or, came tumultuously} All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions. {decree: or, interdict} Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not. {altereth not: Chaldee, passeth not} Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree. Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

(Daniel 9:4-19) And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee. {belongeth...: or, thou hast} O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee. To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. {made...: Heb. intreated we not the face of the, etc} Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice. And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly. {gotten...: Heb. made thee a name} O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us. Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies. {which...: Heb. whereupon thy name is called} {present: Heb. cause to fall} O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

(Daniel 6:11-18) Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God. Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not. Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day. Then the king, when he heard these words, was sore displeased with himself, and set his heart on Daniel to deliver him: and he laboured till the going down of the sun to deliver him. Then these men assembled unto the king, and said unto the king, Know, O king, that the law of the Medes and Persians is, That no decree nor statute which the king establisheth may be changed. Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee. And a stone was brought, and laid upon the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet, and with the signet of his lords; that the purpose might not be changed concerning Daniel. Then the king went to his palace, and passed the night fasting: neither were instruments of musick brought before him: and his sleep went from him.

(Daniel 9:20-27) And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. {swiftly: Heb. with weariness, or, flight} And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. {to...: Heb. to make thee skilful of} At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. {commandment: Heb. word} {greatly...: Heb. a man of desires} Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. {finish: or, restrain} {make an...: or, seal up} {prophecy: Heb. prophet} Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. {be built...: Heb. return and be built} {wall: or, breach, or, ditch} {troublous: Heb. strait of} And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. {but...: or, and shall have nothing} {desolations...: or, it shall be cut off by desolations} And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(Daniel 6:19-28) Then the king arose very early in the morning, and went in haste unto the den of lions. And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: and the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions? Then said Daniel unto the king, O king, live for ever. My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt. Then was the king exceeding glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no manner of hurt was found upon him, because he believed in his God. And the king commanded, and they brought those men which had accused Daniel, and they cast them into the den of lions, them, their children, and their wives; and the lions had the mastery of them, and brake all their bones in pieces or ever they came at the bottom of the den. Then king Darius wrote unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you. I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end. He delivereth and rescueth, and he worketh signs and wonders in heaven and in earth, who hath delivered Daniel from the power of the lions. {power: Chaldee, hand} So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian. (KJV)


The prayer in chapter 9 probably would have been what was on Daniel's mind up til chapter 6, because after the incident in the lions' den everything can go back to 'normal' for faithful Jews - they're allowed to worship God without persecution and not long after Darius lets them go back into Israel and Jerusalem to build the temple.

However, we decided that it was just a (in words Dan A would use) 'would-be-nice,' because when we read the two chapters separately there seems to be no seam in them, and we can't see any plausible reason why they would be intermingled when they seem so seamless and together.


Chapter 6

Note that Daniel was basically 2nd in control to the known world at the time, and yet he didn't seem to bother - he knew God was in control and that no matter what happened, it was in God's plan.

The three presidents (Daniel and two guys who didn't seem to like him too much) could possibly be the 3 ribs in the lop-sided bear's mouth from the Beast Prophesy, but we don't really know (remember it could also be the 3 nations the Medo-Persians persecuted, Lydia, Egypt and somewhere else [I've left my book at the meeting room] )

The people who didn't like Daniel decided to try and find some way to get him demoted, possibly killed if they were lucky. They tried and tried, and the only fault they could find was that he was right. We discussed how amazing this was - they weren't even looking for a godly fault, just any fault, and they couldn't find anything - showing that Daniel really did do what it says in Colossians 3 - "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.". Wouldn't it be great if the only 'fault' people could accuse us of was that we followed and obeyed our God?!

After the nobles had decided they could only get Daniel for worshipping God, they basically go and inflate Darius' head a bit - (Daniel 6:6-7) "Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever. All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions." Darius ego is boosted, and he signs the decree.

After this, however, Daniel agains saves someone's life by converting them. And once again, he does by example, not force. Darius has a sleepless and is very upset when Daniel gets chucked in the den, and afterwards glorifies God and decrees that people must serve the LORD. This was God's lesson to Darius - a bit like Nebuchadnezzar's - God keeps the kings in check when they to primp themselves a bit too much!

Chapter 9 (a few brief comments)

Daniel makes a reference to Jeremiah, showing that he understood it and the basics of what were to happen. He didn't have any details like when the 70 years started or ended (there were 3 captivities) but he did know that the time was about up, and so his prayer is all geared towards Jerusalem. We can compare this to us - we often don't know when prophesies start/end, but we do know that we are very close to the end, so our prayers and thoughts should be geared towards the Kingdom. Note that Daniel did it for God's name and God's sake because if Jerusalem remained ruined then it would be a disgrace, and people might scorn and mock and say 'well, their God's been a fat lot of good in their time of trouble! Look at that Jerusalem place - it's all a heap of rubble!'

God managed to turn a completely Godless nation into a nation where the people 'must tremble and fear before the God of Daniel.'




sorry its a little late, guys, just hope i managed to get there before Jamie's one! =P

The Ram and the Goat – Daniel Chapter 8

Background

Daniel had this vision, we’re told, in the third year of King Belshazzar, a couple of years after the vision of the four beasts, somewhere around 549BC. The study guide suggests he was probably in Persia at this time, acting as a Babylonian ambassador to King Cyrus of Persia, who Daniel knew from Isaiah was going to overthrow the Babylonian empire and eventually free the Jews from captivity. Although there’s no proof for this theory as such, it would definitely explain a few things, such as why Cyrus got on so well with Daniel and didn’t have him executed when he took Babylon. It could also mean that God communicated with Cyrus through Daniel. Interesting....

The Ram – What We’re Told

Verses 3 and 4 are the ones which give us the details about the first animal in the vision, the ram. It had two horns, one bigger than the other, although the bigger one grew up after the little one. When Daniel first sees it, the ram is standing beside the River Ulai, and as he watches, it begins pushing North, West and South (that’s up, down and left, Debbie) so powerfully that no other animal can resist it, and it ‘did according to its own will, and became great.’

The Ram – What It Means

Thankfully, we don’t have to work out the meaning of this vision ourselves, although it does tie in very closely with some of Daniel’s other visions. As he’s wondering what it’s all about, the angel Gabriel comes along to explain it to him.

The ram, he says, represents the Medo-Persian empire, and the two horns are the two kings of Media and Persia. This fits perfectly with what we know from history – the Medes (the little horn) were not nearly as powerful as the Persians (the huge big horn), which resulted in a bit of a lop-sided empire (remember that bear?). The ram pushed North, West and South –the Medo-Persians did exactly that, conquering the area around Israel and all the way down into Egypt and up into Turkey.

To begin with, Daniel sees the ram standing in Shushan, by the River Ulai –this was the city that became the centre of the Persian empire, and where Cyrus ruled from. From what I could find from a quick Google, Shushan was actually under Babylonian control at the time of this vision, so this was actually another part of the prophecy, predicting where Cyrus would choose to set up camp and centre his empire around.

The Goat – What We’re Told

The second animal, the goat, is in stark contrast to the Medo-Persian ram. Unlike the ram, standing by the river, the goat comes charging in from the West, moving so fast it doesn’t even touch the ground, and flattens the ram, breaking its two horns and trampling it into the ground. The goat has just the one ‘notable’ horn right between its eyes, but once the goat has defeated the ram and ‘grown very great,’ this one horn is broken, and four new ones rise up to replace it. Then, one of these four horns starts causing trouble... but we'll look at him later.

The Goat - What It Means

Gabriel helps out with this one, too. The goat is the Greek Empire, and the 'notable' horn is the first ruler of this empire. History again backs this up. The first Greek ruler, the chap who really kick-started the whole empire, was Alexander the Great. The incredible thing about this guy was the speed with which he expanded his empire. In the 13 years between the start of his rule and his death at 33, he conquered much of the known world. (click map to see full size)

This is exactly as described in the vision - the goat moved so fast, it didn't even touch the ground. He comes flying in from the West and hammers into the Medo-Persians, first destroying their main force at the Battle of Issus in 333BC (I love Wikipedia) then chasing Darius about a bit until he was executed by one of his own Persian vassals.

Anyway, back on topic. The big horn was Alexander, but we read that once this horn had become strong, it broke, and was replaced by four other 'notable' horns. Again, scarily accurate. Alexander died suddenly at the age of 33, just at the height of his powers, and since he left no heir, the empire was split between his four generals, Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus and Ptolemy.

The Little Horn

The little horn is where it gets tricky, though. Basically, we're told another little horn grew out of one of the four, became great toward the South, the East and the Glorious Land, grew very powerful, exalted itself, and cast down the place of the Sanctuary and took away the daily sacrifices. V12 says the horn 'cast truth down to the ground.'

The book, at this point, offers two suggestions. The first is that this horn refers to a bloke called Antiochus Epiphanes, who was a later ruler of the Selucid part of the ex-Greek empire, and who really took it out on the Jews. This would fit with some of the details, but not all. For instance, he is known to have defiled the altar in the Temple by sacrificing a pig on it (v11 mentions something like this), but does not fit with some of the other bits.

Verses 23-26 is where we really find out more about this horn, however. It's Gabriel again, explaining some stuff and giving us some more to think about. We talked about this a fair bit, and especially about the book's suggestion that all this could refer to Islam.

This seems (to me at least) to be a very reasonable interpretation. Reading through that section again, every detail is important, and every detail could be linked to the rise of Islam and its position in the world today. We discussed a few:

• South, East and towards the Glorious Land: from Greece, if we look in those directions, we end up with an area which covers most of the Middle East, Northern Africa, and some of South Asia. In other words, an area that is almost entirely Muslim (except Israel).
• Sacrifices and Sanctuary taken away/cast down: What stands in place of God's temple right now? A fairly chunky piece of architecture called the Dome of the Rock - a Muslim place of worship. Can the Jews sacrifice there any more? No...
• Oppression: If you've been watching the news at all any time in the last couple of thousand years, you might have noticed that the Jews and the Muslims don't really get on. Even just in the last fifty years, since Israel was reinstated, there have been several wars and terrorist campaigns directed at the Israelites.

Which brings us back to those verses at the end again. They talk mainly of some sort of king - but surely religions don't have kings? I don't think we really discussed this a lot, seeing as we were running out of time a bit, but it's possible that these verses could refer to somebody like Osama bin Laden.

He has 'arisen in the latter times of the kingdom,' and there's no question that he 'understands sinister schemes.' He has power, but not really his own - he works by piggybacking on the Islamic faith, recruiting suicide bombers etc using the teachings in the Qur'an. He 'destroys fearfully' - that's what terrorism is all about, really. He 'destroys the mighty' - look what he did to America. It's no surprise that he would 'exalt himself in his heart' and 9/11 showcases how he has the capacity to 'destroy many in their prosperity.'

So, it would seem he fits. But, again, it's only a suggestion. All we can really do is keep our eyes open, think about things we see in the news and how they could relate to prophecies like this one in Daniel. We've seen how the early part of the vision was spot-on right, and we can logically deduce that the rest of it will be, too. Right now, we are living in those 'latter days' that Chapter 8 talks about, and we can see prophecies coming true all over the place. Eyes peeled, folks.

That's my thoughts and recollections from what we talked about, anyway. If I've missed stuff out, post a comment below. Sorry it's (slightly) late in coming. Oh, and quite long. And slightly rambly towards the end. If you're still reading by this point, kudos.

January 27th 2008

Daniel Chapter 5

The Banquet
At the start of the chapter it talks of the great banquet Belshazzar threw for all his nobles. Belshazzar was only acting King as his Dad King Nabonidus was in the desert Tema and had appointed Belshazzar this position. Therefore Belshazzar was able to throw this huge expensive banquet and not have to face consequences as technically he was not number one.

The Hand
The words MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN were written in Aramaic and so the congregation should have been able to read the words. So why did they need someone else to help them? Was it because the hand was covering up the words? Was it because they could read the words but didn't understand what they meant up on the wall like that? Or was it because they were so drunk they couldn't understand? We discounted the latter as we felt that seeing a hand write on a wall was enough to sober anyone up! Anyway, we are unsure and can only consider different theories.

Daniel's Response
In verse 17, Daniel tells the King he doesn't want any of the gifts/power offered to him. To refuse something the King has offered would be seen as a big offence and quite rude. We came to the conclusion that Daniel refused them because he knew what was about to happen and so the gifts/power would be worthless by the end of that day.

Verses 18 - 24, King Belshazzar basically gets a telling off from Daniel. He is reminded of his Grandfather's (King Nebuchadnezzar) experience and eventually acknowledgment of God's great glory in verses 18-21.
Verses 22-24 Belshazzar is told:

• He did not sin through ignorance (because of his Grandfather) but through disobedience and pride.
  

• He had defied God by drinking from the goblets of the temple.

• He had worshipped idols instead of God.

These are risky things to tell a King when his party has just been ruined by a terrifying encounter. However, these things needed to be said and Daniel, knowing the Kingdom was about to be destroyed by the Medo-Persians had faith in God.

Many MENE MENE
It was suggested by someone that whenever something is repeated twice in the bible, it means the fulfillment is imminent as was shown here. Unfortunately we didn't have time to investigate further but perhaps it's something to bear in mind.

The final lesson of the class was:

"The one lesson we learn from history is that we don't learn from history"
Professor Jon Gill 2008 (stolen from someone else)

Finally...

Sorry this is a bit late... busy week as usual!

Anyway, it's here now so fill it up.